Der Adler Beta Released

Desert Eagle · Post by **Desert Eagle** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 1:05 am

Map released a day early. Get it here first:

http://www.ravensraiders.net/Adler/DerAdler.ZIP

Notes:
Be sure to read the DerAdler read me file.
Those using lower end pcs will have lower fps in a couple of locations on map.
The Min file has been included for those Mac Users.
It is my first map. Enjoy it, love it, hate it, most of all have fun.

Thank you to all at .map who have answered my questions for the last 2 months. This is the best place I have visited for quick and easy answers to a wide variety of questions.

Desert Eagle · Post by **Desert Eagle** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:03 am

Here are some updated screen shots:

Innkeeper · Post by **Innkeeper** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:00 pm

Looking good!

BTW, I like the size of your screen shots, not too big

mohaa_rox · Post by **mohaa_rox** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 3:21 pm

Yup, nice map and good size.

CHeesER · Post by **CHeesER** » Fri Feb 28, 2003 11:50 pm

Nice work Desert Eagle,I like the moving cranes,interesting.Did you use a func door up there because I heard a door sound when pressing the use key up there.And I managed to stop to cranes rotation.I like the bulldozer,is that a prefab.Did you make it?Looks great.The ship is not bad.

The map has a good flow,even custom textures.A very good job for your first time out.

OK enough of the BJ,I think a little more time could have been spent on texturing.This is one of the hardest thing to get right,so that a map has that realistic look.Not a dig at you just a little advice.

Desert Eagle · Post by **Desert Eagle** » Sat Mar 01, 2003 3:24 am

Yes I used function_rotating door on the cranes and it was noted in the readme file that if players stay in contact with the cranes for more than a few seconds it will stop rotating and return to its start postion, even though in the entiy window I checked not players. I think the problem lies with the func_rotating door being used on such a large object as the crane.

The bulldozer is a map file I got from small_sumo. I would like to thank him for the dozer and his ai tut.

Alot people talk about use of textures in map. I have learned several things regarding textures doing my first map. So Here goes:

There are close to 700 brushes with textures on them. I used 80 textures in the map.

I lived in German for 6 years. Most of Europe's buildings are stone, stuco, and have shake or tile roofs. The most common colors used in most Europe Buildings I noticed or remember are brown,tan, gray, white.

More textures not always a good think. More textures can equal more Mtex, which in turn creates less performance for pcs. Since lower end pcs will have low fps in two areas of map I did not need to hinder their game play more by creating a higher Mtex.

I also do not like full size screenshots so I reduced the tgas by 50% before converting to jpgs.

thanks for the advice, all advice and everything I learned will be used to make my next map, a TOW map for spearhead even better.

On the plus side the map was running all day today on my clan server to a full house.

Once again thank you to all for your help and advice.

Who says old dogs can not learn new tricks. (By mappers standards I am a old man)

Desert Eagle · Post by **Desert Eagle** » Sun Mar 02, 2003 3:50 am

Thanks to those that have emailed advice and info on map this weekend.

Slyk · Post by **Slyk** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 12:41 am

OK, hope you're up for some input....good and bad. Doesn't matter, gonna post anyway and hopefully I can add some useful advice.

First off: Good stuff --

I like the map. Has a small feeling although it's rather modest in size. Lots of ways to get from the Allied spawn to the ship, nice corners to hide around and such. Good approaches. I like the interesting yet believable architecture too in some instances. You've created a really cool setting with the ship, you should be proud for a true 'Mohaa First' in that regard. The automated workers and crane are great! The bulldozer....I want it for my Tractor Works map!!! Ugh, how I struggled with the 'make one---don't make one' thing...didn't, wish I could've had yours. Great work with the broken ground and slabs of stuff in that area too.

Now, the not so good stuff....and I've got pics as my visual aids....

First off in this area:
Lighting. Some rooms are WAY too bright. Looks like the default 300 on some indoor lights. I'd really back that down to 150 or even 100 in some areas....as it is washing out the textures. Next, a couple industrial lights inside a living space. I know we don't have many choices, but I'd err on repeating similar lights versus out of place ones. Go the extra mile and put in 'coronas' over the lights....(big pain, as I just redid that for TW).

Some 'Z' fighting...see pics. Go around very slowly and try to catch these buggers, hurts atmosphere and FPS.

Your hedges.....they have a 'rolling' effect as in they seem to roll up and down from the top as you come/go....not good. Curious if that's an effect of your leaf_groups. Again, see pics.

Grate textures. Ugh. SO many of them are multi-sided giving a serious Z-fight effect, very hard on the eyes and FPS probably too...just looks bad. Make sure you use the 'no draw' texture on the bottom OR be sure, as in most cases, you don't have DUPLICATE brushes in the same space.

Now the big issue......... ....... LEAF GROUPS. I just finished up a good 12 hours toying on my TW-TOW map with them. What a hassle, but well worth it IF you can get them to work well. The trick is deciding which leaf group should contain which wall. In a couple cases you need to adjust for that. See pics. My advice here; use as few leaf groups as necessary. Your map has pretty good VIS blocking in many area....windows don't help on those upper floors, I know, but... Did you go through and make a lot of non-vis-blocking brushes 'Detail'??? A healthy balance can make up FPS.

More leaf stuff....Looks like you have each deck with it's own leaf group. That can be good, especially with all the hi triangle models you've got in the lower hold. I'd advise that probably ONE for the whole three decks of the hold be used. That's tough to do maybe, but with a lot of high angles of view into the hold, much more practical.

More leaf stuff, again. Try to do with fewer, as I said before. Each room/building doesn't need one, in all cases. Try to 'section' your map off. Think in terms of how far the leaf can go and what you can see if you stood at a corner and peered around it. Takes a lot of time, but it will REALLY boost your map. The worst visual thing is to be 20 yards from a wall and have it suddenly pop in or out because of a bad leaf orientation.

Ok, enough. You've got a great concept, I love it, just needs finishing work. OH, and those workers again, cool, but give me some sort of better barrier to their work area instead of a 'clip' brush.... I know, it's jusy eye candy........but.......in realism terms they'd blow your head off if they could.....well, if they were bots, they'd try. Ever try your FPS without those guys??? Just an idea.

Anyway, here's the pics and my comments on them...Remember, I'm not expect, just a pain-in-the-ass realist/perfectionist/pain-in-the-ass.

leaf group popping

SERIOUS leaf group popping, try to move the leaf group containing that building, as in move it AWAY from the player view to free that wall up to stay in view from the currently occupied leaf.

looks like duplicate brushes to me...Z-fight

forget location, but a Z-fight as well, two layers there, overlap of about 8-16 units.

your leaf group drops out the floor here....IF one leaf group below it, be sure the lower one DOES NOT include the trucks deck floor, it should touch the BOTTOM of the deck the truck sits on, not contain it.

See above.

climbing the ladder nearing the next deck....this is ONE step lower that the pic below which **PRESTO** seems to warp you to another place....

see.......one rung higher than the pic above. Both leaf groups should be able to 'see' eachother, i.e. they should NOT be in the 'target/value' field.

Your funky 'rolling' hedges. Like this all over. This is particularly bad as it has a HUGE hole where you either have two brushes stacked, or need to scale up the texture to cover the whole height.

OK, hope I didn't piss ya off, just trying to help...
[/img]

General Death · Post by **General Death** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:35 am

Very nice looking map

Love the guys working in the shop

Desert Eagle · Post by **Desert Eagle** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 7:58 pm

Been MIA for awhie, working with Sperahead SDK, for a custom TOW map and some scripting for some anit-cheats for Mohaa.

Thanks for the input Slyk.

Also thanks General Death for the kind words.

A note Slyk, I like the concept behind Tractor Works, with the Russian Factory complex. Has given me a few ideas of my own for my TOW map.

Der Adler was a good learning map. Eveyone has to have a noobie map...lol. I have learned alot of valuable information in making it and the input recieved from players playing it.

Thanks again
[FS] Desert Eagle
Fighting For Freedom TOW map comming soon!

Slyk · Post by **Slyk** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:44 am

I've learned a lot too and more all the time and I've finished to completion two maps....I've got like four more in some state of 'build'. IF you need any input on the TOW concept and trouble-shooting, let me know. I'm sure something will pop up. I had a lot of challenges. I think I spent about 8 hours just getting a door to work in the right way in conjunction with the switches.

Still trouble-shooting my TW-TOW and should have a v1.1 out soon pending heavy play testing tomorrow. Anyway, let me know if you need any help....and if you've looked at my .scr file, well, wait for the update as it is improved quite a bit and may make a HUGE difference. I found out that following the TOW tutorial from 3dChad left me with some serious 'end condition' errors. Anyway, whatever I can do to help.

mohaa_rox · Post by **mohaa_rox** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 10:33 am

How the hell can you tell about the leaf groups?????????? And wtf are leaf groups and what good do they do and how do I use them?????

I'm a mapping newbie.

Slyk · Post by **Slyk** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 1:33 pm

Theoretically, leaf groups help your frame rates and related game play. What they are meant to do, if used properly, is to tell the game engine what you can/can't see from a particular zone/area. Example:

Your map is say four blocks square, that's 2048 units long and 2048 units wide...each block below showing one of the 1024x1024 blocks.

xxxxxnnnnn
x xn n
x A xn B n
x xn n
xxxxxnnnnn
*****#####
* *# #
* C *# D #
* *# #
*****#####

IF you use leaf groups you can tell the engine what to draw when standing in any one block/group. To use leaf groups, you draw another box whatever size you need, from one to fill a room, to one to cover huge regions of the map, then texture it 'VIS' and right-click it and give it the 'leaf_group' property.

Next let's say we're in block A and we can't for ANY reason see into block D. Highlight block A, then highlight block D....next press 'Ctrl+K' and they boxes will change color...block A will be red, block D will be blue.

In effect, the engine will NOT draw any brushes, players, models, etc. in block D IF and ONLY IF we are standing in block A.

Pitfalls, and there are many: In more open style maps conquering the use of leaf groups in relation to WHICH side of a wall should they be on, or should they enclose the wall...if so, from which side? Same with which side of a floor or ceiling should they be on. Tough choices. Easiest to use them when you can safely target far edges/opposite sides of maps. I'm still fighting them in TW as I thought I had it set...NOPE, you need to run around and check EVERY FREAKIN' possible angle to see 360 degrees from every place. Your use of fog can help this process along.

In short, they're cool IF you can master them, you DON'T need to cover the entire map in them; they're great for dealing with high poly/low fps areas that drag down the whole map. You STILL need to use smart brush design/vis blocking strutures though...everything needs to work together.

SO, in THEORY, I understand them....in practice.....that battle still wages. Check this link for more:

http://w1.261.telia.com/~u26123488/vis/ ... ummies.htm
and do some searches here/other sites and you can find good tutorials, I lost a great link on this, don't remember which site had it.....try TMT.

mohaa_rox · Post by **mohaa_rox** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:26 pm

... i don't understand.

I SUCK!!!!!!!!!!

Slyk · Post by **Slyk** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 2:42 pm

I see my little map thing didn't show properly.......sorry. Anyway, check for tuts and such on the topic, they can help get you 5-20% better FPS depending on the ENTIRE map layout and design. Actually, when doing your layout plan, try to think of how the leaf-groups wil overlay and how the line-of-sight from area to area will go....can help make it easier in the end.