War on Iraq

[253RID]General-Haines · Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:25 am

haha I'm sure he is or else hes with his sons somewhere. Hes probably hiding in a cave with Bin-Laden

nuggets · Post by **nuggets** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:25 am

[Spec Ops] Jack Ruby lol, that was what i was trying 2 say in my 1st post but did it a bit ass about tit

did you receive that in a PM??? if so i guess i'll be getting 1 soon

sooo... how was ur day at work???

[253RID] General Haines lmao, although i don't think they've got caves that big even in iraq for families of his size, BLOODY INBREDS!!!

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:34 am

why are you expecting a pm.. and hahaha bin ladens family is huge!!! lol i think he has 52 sons or something like that... lol hehehe

it was just that your first post was a little misleading

nuggets · Post by **nuggets** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:36 am

1st posts should always be misleading... it's keep the conversation going for longer,

of course it has it's bad points that no1 knows what the hell ur talking about

Post by **Surgeon** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 12:52 am

OK, i've thought long and hard about this and this thread can stay open as long as :

(1) It stays on topic
(2) noone gets abusive and respects other peoples right to have their point of view even if they don't agree with it
(3) Noone complains to me personally
(4) Everyone agrees I'm right

I've deliberately not involved .map in any of the current discussions, mainly because I wanted a place to come to where every second post didn't seem to be about the War.....

A few things i'd like to clear up:

(1) I think we can all agree that Saddaam is one evil MF and deserves to be deposed.....
(2) Can we please not generalise : calling everyone "leftie assholes" is akin to me calling every US citizens "inbred rednecks" because of the actions of several people.....there tend to be distinct catagories - Extreme, Left, and Moderate.....

To be extreme (left or right) is to be very dangerous because it means you are not open to other views or persuasion by discussion. There are just as many dangerous right wing nuts as there are stupid left wing nuts.

(3) Its all about the Oil (sorry couldn't help it

)

My stance on this war :

I supposed I consider myself a "centerist" I have both moderate left wing and moderate right wing views which I suppose makes me fairly unique in this world where everyone seems to be split by the political divide....

I've tended towards the anti war thinking, will a little pro-war in the mix (just to really confuse everyone)....On one hand I wanted rid of Sadaam and thought he should have gone in 1991. On the other I was and still am deeply suspicious of Bush and his motives. I am also worried that this war will distabilise the region.

I have been saddened with the death of 1000's of Iraqi's but I also recognise that this happens in war, and both the US and the Uk have (seemlingly) tried to prevent casualties as much as possible....

Iraq's Future - well its a problem no matter what happens really....even an interim US-led administration will be seen by the rest of the Middle East as an occupation force....The US really needs (Yes - really - it may be a superpower but it can't take on the rest of the world) all the goodwill it can get and why they have not already got an administration with a bit of a multination / iraqi makeup is beyond me.

The fact that US companies were the only companies allowed to tender for the "rebuilding" of Iraq angered me a lot as well as the clear links between the companies that won, to members of the administration - it is this sort of thing that leads to anger towards the US. Why not, for instance offer companies in the UK, whose soldiers fought and died to liberate Iraq to tender for the contracts ??? This is why the Bush administration makes my blood boil.

As for France...well the behaviour in the US with the whole "Freedom" thing really did nothing for US - Rest of the World relations. It was at best Childish, at worst Disgusting..... Yes France said they would veto (its never actually got to a 2nd Resolution - something that the US/UK governments seem to forget - so France didn't actually Veto anything) and they probably did so for their own reasons - as the US has done 36 times in relation to Isreal breaking UN resolutions, left , right and center. Each country has its own views and its own reasons for acting the way they do.....

Isreal / Palestine

This is the important point. I really hope Blair has persuaded Bush to really go after this "road map" with a vengance. To really sort out the middle east you must resolve this issue. Its very much a David / Goliath issue with Goliath being supplied with cheap US arms......I really hope that this issue gets resolved.........

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 1:07 am

Ok first off... im very happy to see that this has gotten so much attention and i respect all of your opinions and i have an open mind.. or atleast try to. And thank you surgeon for leaving this post up... i would think that if i posted this in the off topic forum it wouldnt even be considered as being blocked... i could understand if i posted it in the skinning section people would be quite confused and anxious to figure out what kind of skinning i was talking about lol. well anyways thanks for your comments guys keep em coming!

nihilo · Post by **nihilo** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 3:58 am

I think Surgeon makes some very good points. I really like what .map has going for it (how helpful/easy going people are) and in order to preserve that we've gotta watch the country bashing. Being a Canadian going to school in the U.S., one thing I can never figure out is the anger I see towards the French (I was disgusted by the freedom fries thing as well). They weren't alone in saying they would veto a proposed resolution: Germany and Russia said they would as well. Leave it at what you think and don't make rash generalizations... for all of our sanity.

I don't want to get into whether I think the war should occur (even though my thoughts fall very close to what Surgeon said), but I really think Surgeon has good point when he talks about Iraqi reconstruction. People need to realize that any lasting U.S./British military presence in Iraq will be seen by the Arab world as an occupation force. (About the U.S. not being able to take on the rest of the world? They do have about 50% of the world's military might, you know.) However, the United States does not occupy this world alone and they must realize they need to work with the other people they share this planet with.

Maybe I'm coming off a little anti-U.S., so perhaps I'll say some more of what I think of the U.S. I am cautious towards Bush myself but I think he is honestly trying to do the right thing. I don't think he puts the U.S. that much before the rest of the world that he would fight a very controversial war just for a little more profit for his country. I think by and large the U.S. gov't tries to do the right thing and not abuse its power, but I think the basic problem people have with the U.S. is that so often they do not treat other nations as equals.

Was that on topic? I tried, anyway. Hope I didn't generalize.

Post by **jv_map** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:12 am

Hashmark13 or nuggets wrote:and i seen a post about mohaa rox i beleive (i dont remember for sure) that said they thought mohaa rox was from america... then rox (or who ever.. but im sure it was rox... maybe jv_map) replied and said that the person meant that only talent came from america... i thought he was jumping to conclusions and was being very rude... i didnt appreciate that much at all because the person was just assuming and he got jumped all over..

Isn't that what you (or maybe it was nuggets) are doing?

Jack Ruby · Post by **Jack Ruby** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 10:47 am

I found this pic posted somewhere yesterday, not sure I agree with its sentiments but I really admire the photoshop work and the idea,

<img src="http://www.westmount.co.uk/simons/iwojima.jpg">

Jack

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:36 pm

lol... thats funny... i hope its not a read photo!!! lol i heard somewhere that there is a mcdonolds being built every 10 minutes or something

no wonder all the americans are so fat... hahaha

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 9:38 pm

dont get me wrong... im american... it just seems that we are all over weight... lol

(sorry i dont mean to spam... i just didnt want anyone getting butt hurt)

nuggets · Post by **nuggets** » Thu Apr 10, 2003 11:26 pm

right i'm back online... so i'll bore you with my thoughts again!!!

1stly JV_map it wasn't me, i haven't stereotyped in anyway shape or form in this forum and never do in life so there!!!

2ndly Surgeon if, as you stated every1 agrees your right, and you kinda agree with me about the oil... does this thing that i have finally made a valid comment in this forum???

3rdly Hashmark13 nothing really to add but... on the news today i heard a US soldier saying (and this isn't just propaganda) "they are not here to police the area" while all the looting was going on,

what the bloody hell does he think he is for then... securing oil wells???

now before every1 comes down on me like a ton of bricks i'll add this, i really don't think that bush would think he can lie to a whole nation of people and decieve them by taking the oil from Iraq, no1 can fool that many people and even if he did some1 would talk

but is it not a bit strange when iraq needs "a helping hand" the US aren't there to offer it after announcing world-wide that was their plan... when Saddam agreed he was going to disarm, did Bush think that he had no choice but to go to war cos he may never get another opportunity

either way, i'm glad Iraqi civilains have been liberated, but it's not until Saddam's death has actually been proven and the country can start to rebuild theirselves until we can call this a just war, and then will North Korea, Israeli's/Palestines, Zimbabwe... etc... (the list goes on) will recieve the same treatment

anyway enough said on that now, who else spoke on here...

4thly [Spec Ops] Jack Ruby very good artwork... now's a time to discuss the french, germans and russians, but before i do this people might wanna get a cup of tea and biscuits, it could take a while

every1 seems to point the finger and blame them for what they're doing or didn't do, i'm gonna try and sum this up as soon as possible, sooo...

if the other countries in the VETO decided they wanted a second resolution and didn't get it, what if america decides it's going to start a war on (random country now) ermmm... australia (yes i know it's a continent but hey

) what will veto do then... let america do what it did on Iraq, stan idly by and do nothing... this isn't really that far away of what happened with Saddam, he's only looking for an excuse

lastly nihilo i can't really comment on what Bush thinks is rigt, but only time will tell, this road of avengence will be a long and hard one, if he stands by his word along side Blair and commits his troops to do what he has said he will do, i will take my hat off and apologise to the guy

at the end of the day, they're no different from me or you, he's just doing what he thinks is right for america

sooo... i'm going 2 rest my fingers in a bubble bath and i'll read some more later

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 2:48 am

ok jv_map im not sure where i have stereotyped maybe about the french (maybe... lol...) and if anyone was offended by it im sorry...

and about the french, germans, ect... vetoed the war on iraq... i dont think you understand why we are angry with them. its not because they did veto the war its because they intintionaly hurt the United States politically and if you dont know what im refering to perhaps you should look it up on internet or watch the news. im sorry if you are french canadian for or against the war i am not mad at you.

And for the policing of iraq. the war isnt over completely we cant just go about launching tear gas at the civillians after we liberate them because then they would be confused and attack us or something and we still need our troops to do more important things... and the securing oil wells... thats the iraqi peoples only way to make money... we are only securing them for the iraqis (or so i hope). without the oil the new iraqi government wouldnt be able to make much money.

and a comment nuggets made about is it fair that blaming france germany russia for wanting to have un inspections last longer... i have only 3 things to say about that... It wasnt fair. And if we had waited any longer our inspectors would have continues to be poisoned and shot at when no one was looking. And i have a question for you... Before the war started when bush was still trying to convince the UN to allow an attack on iraq, American (as well as other war supporting countries) tourists in france were having rocks and food thrown at them in france... how fair do you think that is? that still does not give us the right to be mad just cuz the vetoed the war but as i said... we have our reasons.

And again i respect all of your beleifs and did not mean to country bash as it is called, i only directed my anger towards the french government... although the citizens of france are also anti war and have stated that through physical evedence as stated above.

The last thing im going to talk about is the War coverage propaganda... its really getting on my nerves as well... if you havent noticed they play sympethetic music when interviewing injured soldiers or soldiers who lost a friend or family who have lots a relitive in the war... its really just to get our emotions on their side.. the list of what this propaganda frenzie is doing that should be stopped but im not going to list them.

Hashmark13 · Post by **Hashmark13** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:01 am

either way, i'm glad Iraqi civilains have been liberated, but it's not until Saddam's death has actually been proven and the country can start to rebuild theirselves until we can call this a just war, and then will North Korea, Israeli's/Palestines, Zimbabwe... etc... (the list goes on) will recieve the same treatment

Im not quite sure where you got the idea we were going to attack isreal or palestine... and especialy Zimbabwe... are you thinking that we have some grudge against the middle east and if im not mistaken (i probly am) i think zimbabwe is in africa

we would have no reason to attack isreal or palestine if we attacked either of those we would be subject to people saying that we are taking sides on their 'holy war' and neither of those countries pose as a threat to us only small orginizations within those countries.

people say we didnt stay long enough in afganistan and now theyre saying we are staying too long in iraq. im a little confused by this... i also agree we should have stayed in afganistan longer but we need to stay in iraq long enough to get things settled down. for a while after we are in temperary control in iraq there will still be scattered iraqi soldiers scattered amongst the population and will randomly make attacks on our troops.

and back to Zimbabwe... i just looked up where they are and they are infact in africa.. this doesnt mean that they dont pose as a threat but continue to read about this...

Zimbabwe: "The Politics of National Liberation and International Division"
(October 2002 - ICG Africa Report N?52) - Deep divisions in the international community about the response to Zimbabwe’s crisis are playing into President Robert Mugabe’s hands. Foreign media emphasis on the plight of white farmers reinforces the erroneous but widespread belief in Africa that the West [America] is concerned about Zimbabwe only because white property interests have been harmed. There are very real problems in Zimbabwe – including the risks to southern African stability and rising humanitarian costs of the crisis. ICG calls for targeted sanctions that are better enforced and extended beyond ZANU-PF’s leadership, and a much more nuanced two-track diplomatic strategy for the United States and the European Union of strong and public actions to isolate the regime while quietly engaging with and applying back-stage pressure on key African states and SADC to encourage more resolute action

this is what ive found on a website site... http://www.africaonline.co.zw/ interesting... i dont have much to say about this...

i would like to hear more of your comments

Jack Ruby · Post by **Jack Ruby** » Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:02 am