good news/bad news

[Master-Of-Fungus-Foo-D]

well, ill give to good news first. Igot my computer fixed, and the internet works... ok, now for the bad news... its that time to get report cards, and im sad to say ive got to stay off the pc's for 4 weeks(im not allowed to get c's..) HOW WILL I SURVIVE? i guess ill seeya in 4 1/2 weeks... (maybe 9 )...well, 4 1/2 - 9 weeks from tomorrow at about 5... i hope im still alive after my parents RIP me LIMB FROM LIMB...

(I hope i dont get bugged for copyright )

[lizardkid]

your parents are thinking that denying you a vital studying/researching tool will improve your grades and skills in virtual communication and virtual creation?



i bet they believe violent video games caus school shootings too huh?

[Axion]

your parents are stupid enough to think that denying you a vital studying/researching tool will improve your grades and skills in virtual communication and virtual creation?

You're kidding me, right? Back in my day (and I'm only 23 years old), we used something called a library, and *surprise*, it worked just fine.

People are getting too dependent on letting their computer do all the work for them. Believe me, us humans can still survive and get good grades without a computer. Any mathematician worth his salt can do calculations without a calculator, so by the same token, any good scholar/student should be able to succeed without the Internet.

[lizardkid]

can you deny that the computer is a greater resource than a library? a computers internet has access to every subject in the world, from just about every country.

People are getting too dependent on letting their computer do all the work for them. Believe me, us humans can still survive and get good grades without a computer. Any mathematician worth his salt can do calculations without a calculator, so by the same token, any good scholar/student should be able to succeed without the Internet.

not particularly, most computer-illiterate or non-regular users rarely use the computer, and dont understand how powerful a tool it is.

would you rather use a calculator to cut down the equational time of a complex problem or pencil-it-out on site at work? of course it depends on the job but in general.

yes of course, but the computer is an EXTREMELY versatile and powerful tool. say i took away your books, pencils, and pens. that's the equivalent in base terms as taking away a computer.

Back in my day (and I'm only 23 years old), we used something called a library, and *surprise*, it worked just fine.

true, and i'm not saying computer is the ONLY tool you should be able to use, but you can't seriosuly tell me a computer is something you shouldn't rely on.

[Axion]

Let's put it this way:

I personally believe that people who don't know how to do manual research on their own should be allowed to rely on their computer as a crutch; they should learn how to do it the hard way first.

It's easier to use a calculator to do math, but if you never learned how to do the calculations yourself, then you are dependent upon using the calculator to do the work for you. I wasn't allowed to use a graphing calculator in any of my highschool math classes, and as a result, I had to be able to graph on my own. How can you appreciate how useful a computer really is if you don't have to do things the hard way beforehand? Giving children instant knowledge without an appreciation for it is wrong.

There is a distinct difference between using a computer to supplement your study habits and skills, and using it for everything because it's convenient. And while a computer may be more versatilethan a library, it's also taken for granted. Kids in primary and middle school should not be allowed to do research for essays or projects on computers, because it doesn't 'teach' them a damn thing.

And while the Internet has a vast wealth of information, a large percentage of it is far from credible. Anyone can throw up a web page and say whatever they want, and if someone reads it, they can use it as a source. At least when you go to a library, the information there is guaranteed to usable and usually of decent quality.

And let's not even get started about how the use of computers has destroyed language skills. It's not absurd to see kids who have no grammar or compositional skills because they "TyPe Lyke Dis". Computers are indeed a powerful tool, but I prefer the old-school fundamental style of learning first.

I WILL say that a computer is something you shouldn't rely on, and to say you should is absurd.

[Axion]

?Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime.?

The same principle applies to computers.

[lizardkid]

i agree with some points, such as these.

...they should learn how to do it the hard way first.

Kids in primary and middle school should not be allowed to do research for essays or projects on computers, because it doesn't 'teach' them a damn thing.

"TyPe Lyke Dis"

those are what i agree with, i do NOT agree wit this is particular.

It's easier to use a calculator to do math, but if you never learned how to do the calculations yourself, then you are dependent upon using the calculator to do the work for you.

i must call you on this one. most calculators (mine is a Texas Instruments scientific, it's pretty new) do not have functions to do the problems for you. the most you can usually use them for is square root, exponents, basic operators, and the like. they will NOT sort variables in algebra, get surface area in Geometry, or even get what a variable is in Algebra. they're meant as tools, not as replacements.

I WILL say that a computer is something you shouldn't rely on, and to say you should is absurd.

i think we have too different definitions of "rely on", because i've had misunderstandings like this in the past.

i meant that like, you rely on a library, you rely on a pencil, you rely on cars and bicycles. by rely on i mean its a commonly used tool that has great potential, thus why it's commonly used. i dont mean rely on like crutches or a wheelchair, that's not what i meant.

but to this here, i must also have a contradiction.

And while the Internet has a vast wealth of information, a large percentage of it is far from credible. Anyone can throw up a web page and say whatever they want, and if someone reads it, they can use it as a source. At least when you go to a library, the information there is guaranteed to usable and usually of decent quality.

nope. it's got the same credability level of the internet. anyone can publish a book by themselves, heck i could publish a book detailing life on Saturn. if i make it sound good enough, people will believe it. books are no better than data files. they're jsut heavier and easier to ruin, and harder to carry around.

[Axion]

Consider this:

The average joe doesn't write a book and get it published; they do, however, sign up for a free webspace on geocities (or wherever), and say what they want. It's a safe assumption that the bulk of pusblished authors have good knowledge of what they write about, have done some research, and are educated. You can't say the same about the average personal website, although there are exceptions.

Regarding the calculator issue-

If a child doesn't know his multiplication tables, he can still easily punch in 9 * 8 on his simple, non-programmable calculator and be rewarded with the correct answer. The bottom line is that calculators should not be in the hands of children who haven't gotten basic mathmatical concepts down pat. I sure wouldn't want my child to have access to a scientific calculator if he was learning to do fractions, or long division, or any other basic function, because it's too easy to cheat.

When you're older and in highschool level math, using a calculator isn't a problem because most students have a solid grasp of the fundamentals by then. This goes back to me saying that primary and middle-school aged children shouldn't be allowed to use computers or calculators until they prove that they know how to do things on their own first.

And I agree that I misunderstood you on the meaning of 'rely'.

[Cheetohs]

Playing MOH:AA, or mapping isn't exactly using the computer for studying reasons... I think that is the point your parents are trying to make . Usually the info you are studying for comes straight from the textbooks of that class, i don't think they (the teacher) wants you to scower the internet for the best and most descriptive answer... that's more work for them.

The only thing you would need a computer for would be to type up reports that are required to be typed, and possibley the info within them needs to be discovered on the internet.. but im sure parents will have strict exceptions.

[Mj]

Excuse my interruption, but saying that learning the hard way first: does that mean builders should learn to build wattle and daub walls first? Should a student learn to write on papyrus with an inky feather? Naah, we got the tools, so we should use and exploit them, until something better comes along

[Axion]

Excuse my interruption, but saying that learning the hard way first: does that mean builders should learn to build wattle and daub walls first? Should a student learn to write on papyrus with an inky feather? Naah, we got the tools, so we should use and exploit them, until something better comes along

Don't be a smartass. You know what I mean.

Learning the hard way means any learning method in which you are forced to work the problem out yourself in order to reinforce the concepts being taught.

[lizardkid]

i hope i didnt offend anyone here, i tried to be a civil debater

using outdated tech and learning the basics are too different things Mj, we dont use typewriters anymore, we use computers. we dont use papyrus anymore, we use paper

Playing MOH:AA, or mapping isn't exactly using the computer for studying reasons... I think that is the point your parents are trying to make . Usually the info you are studying for comes straight from the textbooks of that class, i don't think they (the teacher) wants you to scower the internet for the best and most descriptive answer... that's more work for them.

The only thing you would need a computer for would be to type up reports that are required to be typed, and possibley the info within them needs to be discovered on the internet.. but im sure parents will have strict exceptions.

well no, but i dont really know how old Fungus is, he could be a Senior in HS, you never know.
and yes i totally understand why his parents forbade him from using the comp but one never knows, some parents (like mine) can be swayed or they lessen the punishment if you put their decision on different grounds.

[Axion]

i hope i didnt offend anyone here, i tried to be a civil debater

No, I thought it was a fun discussion. I hope I didn't come off as offensive to you, either.

[lizardkid]

nah you were fine

but Fungus here... tsk tsk.

[Mj]

we dont use typewriters anymore, we use computers. we dont use papyrus anymore, we use paper

What? My papyrus loads quite well into my typewriter... Sorry, i didn't read thourougly enough

Don't be a smartass. You know what I mean.

"Give a Jackass an education, and he turns into a Smartass"