btw, in response to ''great american walk out'' yesterday..

[snipester]

ok kool can you send them to me if they are finished i would love to use them if thats ok with you.

[Splaetos]

People walk out of something?

Anyhow, the whole thing is stupid, America wont Ship out the ilelgals, and wouldnt function 'properly' at this point without them. We are dependent on them, much like foreign oil!

Remember, if you ever see a politician make a speech about illegals stealing jobs from American workers, get a microphone and ask him about outsourcing tech jobs oversees =) Illegal immigrants are a smokescreen for more complex, weighty issues that the general public cannot readily embrace one way or another. In point of fact, most immigration poilcies have always been geared toward(although in practice it gets very muddled) the admittance of those with special skills, which is completely at odds these days with the oft quoted, 'Smarter, more technically savvy American Worker of the Future'. Let in laborers, legalize them, let them make at least minimum wage and PAY taxes. Then you dont have to make college HARDER to pay for while talking out of the side of your mouth about educating the average american worker.

[Broadus]

Right on!
Woo!
Amen!

but 4 rlz

Indeed. Good point.

[PKM]

here's the point, the main thrust of the paraders is ''WE JUST WANTED A DAY OFF !" ERRRRRRRRRRR... the illegals are just taking the jobs americans refuse to do. not true. we aren't taking those ''menial'' jobs because we can't afford .


oh wait, here's an american border agent with valid points.......

Dear Senator Frist:

There is a huge amount of propaganda and myths circulating about illegal aliens, particularly illegal Mexican, Salvadorian, Guatemalan and Honduran aliens.

1. Illegal aliens generally do NOT want U.S. citizenship. Americans are very vain thinking that everybody in the world wants to be a U.S. citizen. Mexicans, and other nationalities want to remain citizens of their home countries while obtaining the benefits offered by the United States such as employment, medical care, in-state tuition, government subsidized housing and free education for their offspring. Their main attraction is employment and their loyalty usually remains at home. They want benefits earned and subsidized by middle class Americans. What illegal aliens want are benefits of American residence without paying the price.

2. There are no jobs that Americans won't do. Illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans can't take and still support their families. Illegal aliens take low wage jobs, live dozens in a single residence home, share expenses and send money to their home country. There are no jobs that Americans won't do for a decent wage.

3. Every person who illegally entered this nation left a home. They are NOT homeless and they are NOT Americans. Some left jobs in their home countries. They come to send money to their real home as evidenced by the more than 20 billion dollars sent out of the country each year by illegal aliens. These illegal aliens knowingly and willfully entered this nation in violation of the law and therefore assumed the risk of detection and deportation. Those who brought their alien children assumed the responsibility and risk on behalf of their children.

4. Illegal aliens are NOT critical to the economy. Illegal aliens constitute less than 5% of the workforce. However, they reduce wages and benefits for lawful U.S. residents.

5. This is NOT an immigrant nation. There are 280 million native born Americans. While it is true that this nation was settled and founded by immigrants (legal immigrants), it is also true that there is not a nation on this planet that was not settled by immigrants at one time or another.

6. The United States is welcoming legal immigrants. Illegal aliens are not immigrants by definition. The U.S. accepts more lawful immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined.

7. There is no such thing as the "Hispanic vote". Hispanics are white, brown, black and every shade in between. Hispanics are Republicans, Democrats, Anarchists, Communists, Marxists and Independents. The so-called "Hispanic vote" is a myth. Pandering to illegal aliens to get the Hispanic vote is a dead end.

8. Mexico is NOT a friend of the United States. Since 1848 Mexicans have resented the United States. During World War I Mexico allowed German Spies to operate freely in Mexico to spy on the U.S. During World War II Mexico allowed the Axis powers to spy on the U.S. from Mexico. During the Cold War Mexico allowed spies hostile to the U.S. to operate freely. The attack on the Twin Towers in 2001 was cheered and applauded all across Mexico. Today Mexican school children are taught that the U.S. stole California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. If you don't believe it, check out some Mexican textbooks written for their school children.

9. Although some illegal aliens enter this country for a better life, there are 6 billion people on this planet. At least 1 billion of those live on less than one dollar a day. If wanting a better life is a valid excuse to break the law and sneak into America, then let's allow those one billion to come to America and we'll turn the USA into a Third World nation overnight. Besides, there are 280 million native born Americans who want a better life. I'll bet Bill Gates and Donald Trump want a better life. When will the USA lifeboat be full? Since when is wanting a better life a good reason to trash another nation?

10. There is a labor shortage in this country. This is a lie. There are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of American housewives, senior citizens, students, unemployed and underemployed who would gladly take jobs at a decent wage.

11. Is it racist to want secure borders? What is racist about wanting secure borders and a secure America? What is racist about not wanting people to sneak into America and steal benefits we have set aside for legal aliens, senior citizens, children and other legal residents? What is it about race that entitles people to violate our laws, steal identities, and take the American Dream without paying the price?

For about four decades American politicians have refused to secure our borders and look after the welfare of middle class Americans. These politicians have been of both parties. A huge debt to American society has resulted. This debt will be satisfied and the interest will be high. There has already been riots in the streets by illegal aliens and their supporters. There will be more. You, as a politician, have a choice to offend the illegal aliens who have stolen into this country and demanded the rights afforded to U.S. citizens, or to offend those of us who are stakeholders in this country. The interest will be steep either way. There will be civil unrest. There will be a reckoning. Do you have the courage to do what is right for America? Or, will you bow to the wants and needs of those who don't even have the right to remain here?

There will be a reckoning. It will come in November of this year, again in 2008 and yet again in 2010.

We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves.

David J. Stoddard
U.S. Border Patrol (RET)
Hereford, Arizona

and yes rook, i do "look" bad asses lol

[hogleg]

This is very timely considering the recent protests we have had, nation wide, by the illegals in the country. It's amazing SO many students in Dallas are SO concerned. Actually, I would be willing to believe that 80% of the "protestors" just wanted to get out of school ... a lot easier than learning English.

If you are ready for the adventure of a lifetime, TRY THIS:

Enter Mexico illegally. Never mind immigration quotas, visas, international law, or any of that nonsense.

Once there, demand that the local government provide free medical care for you and your entire family.

Demand bilingual nurses and doctors.

Demand free bilingual local government forms, bulletins, etc. Procreate abundantly.

Deflect any criticism of this allegedly irresponsible reproductive behavior with, "It is a cultural U.S.A. thing. You would not understand, pal."

Keep your American identity strong. Fly Old Glory from your rooftop, or proudly display it in your front window or on your car bumper.

Speak only English at home and in public and insist that your children do likewise.

Demand classes on American culture in the Mexican school system.

Demand a local Mexican driver license. This will afford other legal rights and will go far to legitimize your unauthorized, illegal, presence in Mexico

Drive around with no liability insurance and ignore local traffic laws.

Insist that local Mexican law enforcement teach English to all its officers.

Good luck! You'll be demanding for the rest of time or soon be dead, because it will never happen. It will not happen in Mexico, or any other country in the world except right here in the United States, Land of the naive and stupid, idiotic politically correct politicians.

If you agree, pass it on. If you don't, go ahead and try the above in Mexico or Iraq.

another good one:

Subject: US Citizens Working in Mexico....Difficulties Encountered



The following is from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City.


I spent five years working in Mexico. I worked under a tourist visa for
three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that
you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks
waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a
permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I
had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same
except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals
(not copies) of my:
1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.
2. Marriage certificate.
3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.
4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of
graduation.
5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at
least one year.
6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest
record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in
good standing."
7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why
there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were
important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on earth"
letter. It was fun to write.



All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and
be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a
folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the
right.


Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by
a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being
photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location (and we
remember at least four locations) we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor,
housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face
the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we
would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and
bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in
our household goods that were held by US customs in Loredo Texas. This meant we
rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees
involved here that the company paid.


We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and
under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing
process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our
headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the
laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and
fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six
dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received
instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a
policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it
against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you
would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of
our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and
we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages
annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying
more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM# and certifying we were leaving
no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens)
before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our senators or congressmen went
through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its
citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White House or
government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy.
The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most
protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing
shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests
are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the
street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as
proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on
illegal immigrants.

[Broadus]

Mmm, smell that racism! Breathe deep! Especially the first one. Good stuff!

[Splaetos]

how do you get in state tuition when your not a citizen of the country? O.o

Who is going to pay 10-15$ an hour to a dishwasher?

Are you seriously going to try and convince someone that an immigrant is taking away his awesome migrant field worker or housekeeper position?

Seriously, how can someone argue a fact like 'there is no job americans wont do if they made a good wage' DUH??? How does that change the fact that no one is going to pay you enough to buy your new hemmy gas guzzler for a job that simply will never pay that much? MOST of these jobs are 'minimum wage' or 'low' wage postitions. Saying A US citizen would do them for more money doesnt mean someone is going ot pay more for someone to do it... it means that guy has shit for brains is what it means....

There is no such thing as the 'hispanic vote'? *Snort* are you seriously posting something by someoen who can put those words into a sentence? The hispanic vote is probably stronger then the union vote in some places these days, and DEFINATELY strong er then the 'black vote' in places where it is strong. And a border guard or whatever is goign to tell a senator who spends how much money studyign the electorate what is and isnt a 'real' vote?

We will not allow America to be stolen by third world agitators and thieves

He should have just written that line there. That is what his letter is all about.

Illegals who are in this country are here for only one reason. They are better off here. Whether or not they want to become citizens is irrelevant at this point. If you want to actually legalize the ones who want to work and pay taxes, then and only then, may you seriously discuss whether they would prefer to be illegal. And at that point, by all means kick out the illegals. I'll personally kick thier ass back into the river.


Your not going to stop unauthorized immigration with any negative measures short of making the US a complete fortress, which by the way, is what alot of the paranoid schizo's out there actualy want since 9/11. Patriotism has subverted nationalism into something new, strangely like xenophobia, but probably demanding a whole new word. This is not just a US phenomenon of course... the world is becoming more and more secular every day. That fact alone scares me more then a billion illegal immigrants.

From a purely economic standpoint... the concept of spending truckloads of money to do something which will be not only ineffective, but whatever effect it does have, will not be beneficial overall, is confounding.

That letter is.... well cmon, i mean he contradicts himself from point to point... once minute he's saying americans can do these jobs, the next hes saying mexicans will do them because they live dozens to a house and share expenses. What will employers suddenly double the wage to higher a replacement? Not likely. And how much money are you tossing at the problem to emply brute force measure in order to get them to try? Billions.

[PKM]

splae, the person who wrote the letter states american's will not take the jobs, what he means is they can not. and not just because we're spending it on gas guzzling SUVs, nice liberal paint throwing there . we can't take those jobs because we have famlies, many of us are two income families and have been for a long long time. do i fault the companies that hire these felons ? yes but i can't say i blame them, the companies want their version of the american dream also. if there was a true 'hispanic' vote, we would never had heard of this law, not once. politicians would be comitting political suicide.


but alas, in the end this is just your goverment saying ''look over there , a fetus killer !!!" to distract the lemmings from just how shitty a job they are doing.

[hogleg]

Do you live in Texico my friend?Because if you did you would relize the magnatude of the problem. I can't go

through a drive through without my order getting *#@! up! Why? soe thory no engalish....Press here for English !

WTF.....THey are #@*! coming here because our forfathers created a utopia compared to them, well their slowly

turning into Texico. I guess I should have to move, huh?

Illegals who are in this country are here for only one reason. They are better off here.

Thier better off here because we made it that way. They come in and drag it down to an improved state for them but

below our standards. They come here because their better off and their bitchin?

Thats not being racist, I seriously believe this world is big enough for every different culture to have their own

land,country, to put every race in one big pot is a brew for disaster.

That fact alone scares me more then a billion illegal immigrants.

A billion spanish speaking immagrants doesn't scare you? That would boge our system down so bad that it would

collapse.Healthcare, social services, transportation, jobs, food, what are kidding?

The job issue, yeah we've let it slowly creap into our system and maybe if they weren't here a dishwasher would

make 10-12 bucks an hour like they should. But if an owner can get a mexican to do it for 5 then its a no brainer.

and one question: Where does it stop? Manatory Spanish for our kids? Next Japanize?
You come here you ADAPT to our ways, language, culture, we sure the hell shouldn't change ours for them!
If I moved to Russia I would learn russian and adopt their culture because Im choosing to be a Russian.

Busing will be enforced again but this time for the Mexicans LOL What a disaster that was....were such idiots!
Its really no wonder most of the world thinks American's are idiots.Our system will melt down before any other

milliena tested society.

[lizardkid]

i havent really read this topic enough to make any arguments, but here's my 2cents, regardless on whether or not it's been said before.

I've no problems with immigrants, yes they do jobs we dont want to do and yes they're hard workers. all good stuff, even if they can't even speak the official language (in Arizona there was a bill to make Spanish the second official language, i never heard waht became of it), however there is a fundamental flaw in saying "oh they do our jobs, whats your problem?"

America's social structure involves the rich, the average, and the poor. our legal poor are in deep enough problems as it is, and having illegal people from other countries come in, steal their jobs, and take their money, that's a slap in the face. when the born and bred americans are struggling and these illegal immigrants come in and take the grocery store, the gas stop, and the dishwashing jobs, i think there's a problem.

i don't like them in two ways, yes they steal our jobs from our poor, they can't speak the language, and they didn't come here legally. how HARD is it to sign a couple papers, wait a week or two, and then move without all the excitement of getting arrested?

however, i have to point out something i saw in your last post splae.

which by the way, is what alot of the paranoid schizo's out there actualy want since 9/11. Patriotism has subverted nationalism into something new, strangely like xenophobia, but probably demanding a whole new word

i like to think of it as paranoid isolationism. and isolationism has lead to the most golden of gold ages for any country to do so. the Chinese, for example. We were fairly mellow until the Korean war, then we started going into wars for unknown reasons, vietnam, gulf, gulf 2... had any of these countries attacked us? no they attacked our allies. forced us to grudgingly go into it for them and play "Big Brother". I'd rather we not do that or at least VOTE to go into war, instead of letting the current president go wild and start whatever he wants to, democracy was about the people not the man. and there's nothing to say voting has to be limited to public office.

anyway that's what i think. my $0.02

[PKM]

uh uh uh lizard, it wasn't a war in korea....officially. it was a 'police action' .

[Broadus]

THAT'S a police action!
Seriously, that guy died from police brutality. Very sad.

ANYWAY

I'm all for immigrants, and I definitely have to agree with Splaetos.
However, we need to look at this way: If illegal immigrants absolutely had to be paid the same amount as legal citizens, no question at all, it would all come down to who will work harder for the employer, not how much they're paid.
So, do you think they will choose the hard-working illegal immigrant or the lazy American?
Okay, sorry. Those are stereotypes. Not all Americans are lazy.
I've yet to see an instance of illegal immigrants making things worse, at least where I live (in Arizona, in seeing distance of the Mexican border, about a few miles away). My town actually meets right on the border with another town in Mexico, so it's really easy to cross the border to buy cigarettes. Just don't try to drive vehicles across! They'll pretty much steal your vehicle if they think there could be stuff being smuggled across from Mexico. We're not anywhere near the "tourist" part of Mexico.
Anyway, enough of my life story. Illegal immigrants only manage to contribute to things down here! Hooray.

[lizardkid]

they're saying it was "police action" in Iraq too. my point was we started stuffing our business into everyone else's.

[Broadus]

They're saying Iraq was a police action, too?
I don't see how anything can be a police action if it's, you know... Warfare.

[lizardkid]

They're still somewhat vague but now they're going for the "Saddam was a tyrannical, evil, cruel man who needed to be taken down."

well... yeah but what gives us the right to do so?

my point was i'd rather see the US clam up and become xenophobic than shove our business to other people...

back to immigrants tho... i hijacked this professionally.