vis brushes

Post by **jv_map** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 6:52 pm

I have no paint program here so I'm going to try to describe what the 'perfect' (8)) hint brush in this situation would look like.

First make an immense brush that envelopes your entire map and assign the hint or vis texture.

Then use the clipper (x) and place a clip point at the very left bottom (top view) of said window and on the very right top of the hallway corner. If I've made myself clear, you'd end up with a diagonal hint brush in the area1 to area2 corridor.

Make sure the hint brush extents all the way into area1 and into area2, otherwise it won't work at all. Finally clip off unneeded (can't spell unneccasary

) parts.

I think this one will do quite well. If required, you could add a second one from the left top of the doorway to the right bottom of the hallway.

solar · Post by **solar** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 8:29 pm

Thx Storm, yeah, I'm in the process right now of detailing everything that isn't a wall. Should I detail interior walls? Is it only the exterior walls that should be structural? In response to the rotating door, you're right about that too and I forgot that theya re ignored so thanks for the reminder. I will get you a new screenshot later tonight and hopefully we can iron all that out.

TheStorm · Post by **TheStorm** » Tue Mar 25, 2003 9:03 pm

solar wrote:Should I detail interior walls? Is it only the exterior walls that should be structural?

No!!! Leave all walls structural, all floors, ceilings etc structural. Outside ground should be structural and if you use lod terrain you might have to put caulk brushes under it to get effectiv VIS. Don't become to "Detail Happy", but generally all small brushes, signs, destroyed walls debris, small fences, rails etc can be made detail. All interior brush made stuff like paintings, chairs, stairs, tables etc should be made detail.

solar · Post by **solar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:52 am

Allright, detailed everything I feasably could and here's my latest pic:

Black lines are structural walls

Is this what you had in mind jv_map? I get confused when I look at this but I'm hoping it will all come clear in my head here soon. Will the VIS brushes intersect, or should I clip them so they won't? Does it even matter? Should I extend these brushes up through the roof to the top of the skybox?

Storm, I didn't detail any walls so don't worry. But you said not to become to "Detail happy", but everything in my map except walls, floor, ceiling is detailed. My treerows aren't, but should they be?

Any more comments on the VIS thing would be appreciated.

Post by **jv_map** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 9:38 am

Yup this is more or less what I meant. Note that the purple brush can be a little bit more effective by placing the left clip point a bit lower, just like you did with the blue vis brush.

Intersecting hint brushes is not a problem. The brushes should be as high as area 1 and 2.

You may want to detail the pillar between the door and window. It's not blocking any sights anyway.

solar · Post by **solar** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:30 am

What I don't understand is if the VIS brush acts as a structural wall, which keeps portals on the other side of the brush from being drawn, how would I see into AREA 2 if I'm standing in the intersection area? I'm mentally missing something here. Someone make a

go off in my head.

TheStorm · Post by **TheStorm** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 12:11 pm

solar wrote:What I don't understand is if the VIS brush acts as a structural wall, which keeps portals on the other side of the brush from being drawn, how would I see into AREA 2 if I'm standing in the intersection area? I'm mentally missing something here. Someone make a go off in my head.

Go back and read the post in this thread (or read them again), as said a hint/vis brush are structural in such way that it will create new portals but the brush itself won't block any view. It's not the same as a structural brush with a wall texture.

Yarik · Post by **Yarik** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:03 pm

Can some one please tell me what you guys are doing to keep the vis down? Are you adding the vis brush to every room??

Yarik · Post by **Yarik** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 5:22 pm

Sorry for being so Stupid. I just dont get what your are talking about. I read and read an reread the vis for dummies. I understand that small things like boxes chairs tables signs are all supposed to be detail. And I think that all the Walls are supposed to be structural right? Can someone tell me please how to apply it i.e. detail hint brushes I dont know where im supposed to put them.

rOger · Post by **rOger** » Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:31 pm

Make some tests. Create some rooms and hallways between the, add hint brushes, look at it in mohaa. Try to see what parts are being drawn from where in the map. Change the hint brushes and see how that affects the rendering. What parts are now drawn and what part are not drawn. That way you'll figure it out on your own, and then you will really understand it.

Then you may come back here and tell us so that we may know as well.

solar · Post by **solar** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:13 pm

Allright, I put those VIS brushes in place and my FPS and mtex were worse. I've made some changes and am conpiling right now so I'll take this time to ask a few more questions:

1. Does it matter if the VIS brushes intersect structural brushes? I didn't go clip crazy on these brushes but only stressed getting the angle on the corner accurately.

2. How much can scaled down textures hurt these numbers? I have close to 130 textures in the map not counting the vis style texes like origin, ladder, etc.. Is this a potential problem?

3. Storm you weren't kidding about detailing, I went from 1.6 megs visdata to .25 but I still haven't done a full compile. How much better do the numbers generally get when I do a full compile?

4. What's the difference between VIS leafgroups and the VIS brush? Could these leafgroups help with my problems?

After my compile I'll reply with mohrad pics and screenies of my performance and we'll see what comes up. I really want to hammer these issues down. I think it will aid everyone since the FPS, mtex, VIS issues seem the most prevalent problems for mappers.

Post by **jv_map** » Thu Mar 27, 2003 2:40 pm

1. Nope I don't think that matters much (at all).

2. I think scaling down textures has a severe impact on mtex rates. Textures like origin and ladder are not drawn so don't affect fps.

3. The numbers won't get better

4. Yes. Did you do a search yet?

solar · Post by **solar** » Fri Mar 28, 2003 5:21 pm

Yep, you guessed it, This is driving me mad!!! I've tried VIS brushes and leafgroups in a number of combinations and still no reduction in mtex and no increase in FPS. Below is a picture of an overview of my map layout. Before I was just trying to focus on the relationship between AREA 1 and AREA 2, but perhaps it has more to do with the entire layout. Forum, tell me what you suggest.

the black lines that cut through the map represent areas of LOS from one portal to another. All three of the main areas have a lot of detailed brushes inside them. If in AREA 3, AREA 1, and OUTSIDE AREA 1 and I look towards AREA 2, I get the performance problems. I also get them when standing in OUTSIDE AREA 2 and look towards AREA 1 and AREA 2. I'm wondering if the problem is that you could stand in one spot in OUTSIDE AREA 3 and all main areas and the area surrounding OUTSIDE AREA 1 & 2 would all be drawn. The fact remains the biggest performance problems occur when I'm pointing toward AREA 2. I'm open to suggestions...please.

solar · Post by **solar** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:02 pm

what, no help??? Bummer.

panTera · Post by **panTera** » Mon Mar 31, 2003 3:04 pm

I wish I had the solution but I don't. It's impossible to really help you without actually looking at the mapfile with r_showtris and some testing. Even if you'd send us the file I'm afraid it will take just too much time for any of us to do this.

solar wrote:First of all, this map is based on the place I work...

The best thing I can think of is to improvise and make some changes, most people won't even know what that place looks like so why not change some things? If you think a certain window is giving you low fps, then remove the window or block the LOS by a solid wall or a corner-bend. Maybe even leave out one of the areas (just make it so the player can see just a small part of an 'outside area', but can not go there). I know that might not be what you had in mind but if the fps-problem persists you don't have much choice.

solar wrote:I just have it jampacked, I mean it has like 250 static models and I still need to put more in as well as assign my objectives.

All I can say is cut down on the static models. Be creative and try to make some rooms (hallways, or other parts of the buildings) inaccessible. You know, things don't need to actually be there, they just have to look like they are, especially with fps-performance in mind;) Btw, did the hint-brushes make any difference whatsoever and what static models are you using the most? (Oh and it might clear things up for us if you could post an in-game screenshot of a 'jampacked' part of the map if you like).