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well, my opinion would be that we just get our butts away from Iraq, but that would leave it in the hands of another ruler, possibly a new Saddam. whoch would defeat our purpose being there. but i'm totally adverse to making it democratic. who cares if it is or not?tehy'd just throw assasination threats at whoever in the Congress didn't do their way of thinking (the president) it's it's own country, why are we there anyway? USA's motivations were pretty veiled for going in the first place, i think it was weapons of mass destruction? yeah right. we've combed Iraq three times over, probably more, and nothing's come up.

Abandoning the country now would be wrong. We would only have to go back and fix it in another decade. Afghanistan is a prime example of what happens if you leave a country in a lawless state.

The Iraqi's will get their democracy but they are almost certain to vote in a Shia Muslim government, so in effect America is building another Iran. The sunni minority with help from Zarqawi are the people causing chaos as they have soo much to lose if the Shia gain power.

So we need to stand firm, wait a few months until the Iraqi people have been handed power then slowly pull out, to run away would be courting disaster.

The majority of the people welcome the Coalition forces, the chaos you see is only a tiny part of the political process that is going on.

They need our help, we owe it to them to stabilise the country.

Abandoning the country now would be wrong. We would only have to go back and fix it in another decade. Afghanistan is a prime example of what happens if you leave a country in a lawless state

exactly ,abandoning now would even hurt more than continuing on now .

). And in defense of our stance we have to do something or it will keep happening.

well,that doesnt mean lash and slash any1 u THINK might be involved !!
right after 9/11 lybia was bombed !!!! why?
even sudan was bombed in earlier incidents (pre 9/11)
and both countries have sanctions on them ,why ? lybia did handover those 2 guys acording to agreement !!
and i dont think sudan is powerful enough to do anything brave .
it already has a civil war and has one of the worst humanitarian conditions
heck!! even afganistan would have been cosidered more stable than sudan despite hosting those terrorists .

imo i think the whole usa policy towards the middle east in specific and the arab and islamic countries in general is just plain wrong .
instead of wasting all that money on wagin war and upsetting ppl ,firing high tech costly missiles and maintaining fleets and air-raids which ultimatly upsets other nearby nations and tarnishes usa's image .this money should be used to help those poor countries that are overrun with terrorists and investment in other matters.that would improve the usa's image in our eyes and make recruiting ppl against usa all that harder .also ,helping other countries would make them powerful enough to resist hosting terrorists and aiding them .solving key issues in each country would also help alot .if the usa bothered to move to afgansitans aid a long while ago (b4 9/11 ofcourse) and putting an end to the civil war there and start a stable self-sustaining goverment (democratic if usa insists on it)
if u look at the countries having some terrorist problem ,u will see that most of them have some sort of civil war .

this money should be used to help those poor countries that are overrun with terrorists and investment in other matters.

That's been done MANY times with several countries either in shambles or civil war. But the problem is when the country is in that state, you have no government or power with leverage, and in turn nearly every time the rebels involved in the original problem end up stealing this relief and using against the poeple it was intended for (and us in the USA). The only way we can be sure the relief aid is being used correctly by the poeple it is intended to help is to be there ourselves dishing it out. When we go in to any country to do this it is instantly assumed that we are taking over the country, and we get attacked and blamed for every problem thereafter. IMHO I dont beleive there is any way to change the view of americans from the middle east's point of view.

I think we will win the peace eventually, we cant afford to pull out and let the terrorists run riot.

My thoughts exactly. We leave, it's gonna all go back to something worse than when we got there.

why are we there anyway? USA's motivations were pretty veiled for going in the first place, i think it was weapons of mass destruction? yeah right. we've combed Iraq three times over, probably more, and nothing's come up.

Let's set the record straight. There are weapons of mass destruction. We can't find them 'cuz they aren't there. They are probably somewhere else where we won't find them, like in Syria. How long did they have before they knew we would be there? Months! So, do you think that we would actually find anything? You could tell from the start that we weren't gonna find anything. They moved everything before we could get the inspection teams in. It's all a game to make us look bad. They did a good job of doing just that.

And why did we go? Well, it isn't for the oil if that's what you are thinking. LOL! Please, you don't think we have that taken care of here?

And who said we raped the prisoners? OMG! Have you people lost your mind? There was no raping going on of the Iraqi prisoners! Please! First of all, all they did was strip them down and humiliate them for interrogation purposes, not to rape them! Do you really think they were raped? If you do, you are as confused as the ones who killed Berg.

As for Berg, this is a tragedy. The ones responsible obviously have no sense of humanity and will be served justice, either in this life or the next. To take a harmless individual and do what they did just shows how they view humanity outside of their own and that they will stop at nothing. So send 3 times the troops over now! I'm all for it. Eventually, it would be you and me that they would be after.

The rest of the world that backed down when we said we are going in after Saddam should be ashamed. For all those countries who did chicken out, don't call on the US to step in for you if you think what we are doing in Iraq is wrong. You had your chance!

IMHO I dont beleive there is any way to change the view of americans from the middle east's point of view.

well,that is very sad to hear . instead of trying to gain our trust by listening to our opinions (and doing something about it) people simply give up and either just ignores them or even not listen at all .
alot of the "western" media view as as the "bad guys" .and usually there arent any honest reports about what our opinion is or what we care for .
imho the primary problem with usa is its strong defence for israel. they keep kiling ppl,raiding towns and occupying even more areas and usa doesnt move a muscle to stop israel .if it did move a muscle ,it would be a veto against a U.N resolution that demands withdrawls or ceasefires !!

Let's set the record straight. There are weapons of mass destruction. We can't find them 'cuz they aren't there. They are somewhere else where we won't find them, like in Syria, duh!

thats a typical response .its not in iraq ,it must be with its neigbour ,lets go hit them next .
syria doesnt have any hand in those things .and even if they did have them ,whats wrong with that? did they use them on harmless ppl b4 ?do they have any "bad" record with handling wmd weapons ? if syria or iraq or any country should lose its wmd weapons ,then why not israel? why should it be having nukes?

Months! So, do you think that we would actually find anything? You could tell from the start that we weren't gonna find anything. They moved everything before we could get the inspection teams in. It's all a game to make us look bad. They did a good job of doing just that.

actually ,its more like years .if the usa hasnt exploited the inspection team in 1998 and used this as a chance to spy on iraq we would prolly have had a much better situation right now .even the inspection official guy admitted that .

And who said we raped the prisoners? OMG! Have you people lost your mind? There was no raping going on of the Iraqi prisoners! Please! First of all, all they did was strip them down and humiliate them for interrogation purposes, not to rape them! Do you really think they were raped? If you do, you are as confused as the ones who killed Berg.

1st of all ,i resent that
2nd ,maybe u should recheck ur resources man . havent u seen the pics ?
3rd , what kind of interrogation is this ? would u like to be interogated like that ?would u like ur family to be interogated like that?

The rest of the world that backed down when we said we are going in after Saddam should be ashamed. For all those countries who did chicken out, don't call on the US to step in for you if you think what we are doing in Iraq is wrong. You had your chance!/

uve been watching too much tv man .specially american news tv . one guy died and its like a nuke bomb was blown in neywork .while in iraq and palestine alot of ppl are dying everyday and no1 even gives a damn .thats the primary reason for arabs and all muslims being upset with both israel and the usa for defending its bulliesh stance .
yesterday 30 palestinians died in an israeli incursion ,what did the us do 2 stop that ?

First of all, all they did was strip them down and humiliate them

Lets take a closer look at that>

all they did

Lets strip you down and humiliate you and see if you enjoy it, or forgive us and think thats "all we did"

Hmph

the last post with what u said bout us not going in to help
do u think usa is going to help everyone when ever they need it
dont think so
i am australian and do support the war on iraq and think best thing happened in the world to rid and show that the likes of saddam that uses such weapons like nerve agents on civillians is not tolerated in the world we live today
i think us is chooseing there allies careflly and there enemies more carefully

[-[usf]-] commando wrote:the last post with what u said bout us not going in to help
do u think usa is going to help everyone when ever they need it
dont think so
i am australian and do support the war on iraq and think best thing happened in the world to rid and show that the likes of saddam that uses such weapons like nerve agents on civillians is not tolerated in the world we live today
i think us is chooseing there allies careflly and there enemies more carefully

YEAH! GO AUSSIES!
when i'm old enough and rich enough to move to another country it's Australia for me, been that way for a loooooong time.

well, USA sure got itself into a big problem this time, they killed the government, surely they only intended to get rid of Saddam and leave, but everyone else was connected to Saddam, and the whole regime toppled. so we're left with the crumbled remnants of a country.

France is pretty hem, 'wary' toward us now. anyone else hear how they send a Maiden Missle (something liek that) to Pakistan? and Russia started surplusing old weaponry to Middle East countries, sicne they're all but bound to never fight again why not?

i'll abruptly end my tirade now.

M&M wrote:

Let's set the record straight. There are weapons of mass destruction. We can't find them 'cuz they aren't there. They are somewhere else where we won't find them, like in Syria, duh!

thats a typical response .its not in iraq ,it must be with its neigbour ,lets go hit them next .
syria doesnt have any hand in those things .and even if they did have them ,whats wrong with that? did they use them on harmless ppl b4 ?do they have any "bad" record with handling wmd weapons ? if syria or iraq or any country should lose its wmd weapons ,then why not israel? why should it be having nukes?

LOL! Wow dude! I'm not sure you are paying attention here. I didn't say that Syria was the one with WMD, Iraq is hiding them someplace and it could be Syria, it could be someplace else. Regardless, I don't really care if Iraq did have any of them. Saddam needed to be taken out of his rulership and his regime dismantled. Sooner or later, it would have been us.

Months! So, do you think that we would actually find anything? You could tell from the start that we weren't gonna find anything. They moved everything before we could get the inspection teams in. It's all a game to make us look bad. They did a good job of doing just that.

actually ,its more like years .if the usa hasnt exploited the inspection team in 1998 and used this as a chance to spy on iraq we would prolly have had a much better situation right now .even the inspection official guy admitted that .

And who said we raped the prisoners? OMG! Have you people lost your mind? There was no raping going on of the Iraqi prisoners! Please! First of all, all they did was strip them down and humiliate them for interrogation purposes, not to rape them! Do you really think they were raped? If you do, you are as confused as the ones who killed Berg.

1st of all ,i resent that

What is it that you are resenting. I wasn't talking about you. Give me a break, they didn't rape anyone. What you hear in the media is blown out of proportion and not all the facts are present. So why should be believe all that they tell us? I don't base my opinions on just the media.
2nd ,maybe u should recheck ur resources man . havent u seen the pics ?

Yes, I have seen the pics, and no, I still don't see any raping involved. Humiliation, Yes. Did they deserve it? Who am I to say. I don't think that the people involved shouldn't go without being punished. It was a stupid thing to do and the appropriate actions should be taken. But, crap happens in war, we should all know that from our history books.

3rd , what kind of interrogation is this ? would u like to be interogated like that ?would u like ur family to be interogated like that?

I'm really curious as to why you would think I condone this. Did I say that anywhere, No, I don't think so. And if you really want an answer, No, I wouldn't want to be humilated like that. Don't go there pal! I wasn't!

The rest of the world that backed down when we said we are going in after Saddam should be ashamed. For all those countries who did chicken out, don't call on the US to step in for you if you think what we are doing in Iraq is wrong. You had your chance!/

uve been watching too much tv man .specially american news tv . one guy died and its like a nuke bomb was blown in neywork .while in iraq and palestine alot of ppl are dying everyday and no1 even gives a damn .thats the primary reason for arabs and all muslims being upset with both israel and the usa for defending its bulliesh stance .
yesterday 30 palestinians died in an israeli incursion ,what did the us do 2 stop that ?

Again, please don't put words into my mouth. I haven't said anywhere that I want innocent people to die. And look at the way they killed Berg. They video taped it and put it up for everyone to see, EVEN THE FAMILY OF BERG! C'mon now. And about your last comment there, how are we supposed to be God and be there for everyone? If something like that happens and we can't be there to stop it, everyone cry's "What's up with the US, why did they let this happen?" 'Cuz we can't babysit everyone!

Mj wrote:

First of all, all they did was strip them down and humiliate them

Lets take a closer look at that>

all they did

Lets strip you down and humiliate you and see if you enjoy it, or forgive us and think thats "all we did"

Hmph

Yes, you are obviously going off of your emotions here as well. I didn't say it like this: "All they did was strip them down and humiliate them."

What you were supposed to hear was:

They didn't rape anyone, they stripped them down, humiliated them, interrogated them, and were stupid enough to take pictures of it. Then, it got in the wrong hands and it was all over the news and the internet.

Sorry that was confusing. I don't condone this nor did I say that. Please don't put words in my mouth that I didn't mean or intend.

babysitting? We have two regimes, US (yes it is a regime) and the old saddam. What are the US doing different? Pretending they care. And its for US to babysit everone. Its for US to keep there noses in the US. Go contol the guncrime, lack of education, over coporateship (yes, this is a problem - but dont know if its a real word), stop giving weapons to other contries, stop training terrorists (like bin laden).

And THEN go and babysit other countries.

i'd quote ace of spades but my post might blow the server if i did....

i'm personally convinced there were no wmd's anywhere in the Middle East. if there was, even if they did use them on another country, guess what would happen to them?

they'd get pounded by that country and all it's allies. remember Germany? how they messed with taking over Europe? how just about every big name in war came to blow their heads off? Russia, America, Britain, France, even the North Afrikans had to fight them off.
no leader would be stupid enough to send out a wmd and sign the death seal to his country.

i'm not saying we shouldn't have gone to iraq in the first place, since even terrorists get really stupid sometimes and might just try to steal and use a wmd. and it accomplished putting Saddam behind some nice 2 in thick steel bars.

oh, and i think America ought to back out of the ME as soon as it finishes fixing up iraq, that area is older than America, it has it's own system, it works, who cares if they have wars? the only reason terrorists hate us is because we've stepped to help their foes so mant times and because this is mostly a Christian nation. which is of course religion ,they are Islam. religion causes more wars and costs more lives than any other thing in the world. WWII, 9/11, etc. those two combined might top the list but think of this, the Crusades, the Children's Crusade, trying to force two religions to cooperate or help each other is like tying to get a mac file onto pc. it ain't gonna happen right off without some modifications.

along with this, i'd like to add that Islam is it's own culture, it's neat in many ways, but from my aetheist point of view...

Christianity: Jesus died for everyone.Islam has everyone die for Allah.

i'll let that sink in.
and i'm not bashing any religion in any way, i'm pointing out facts. i know i might get some heavy crap for this but i'd like to express my opinions.

Christianity had Jesus die for everyone.Islam has everyone die for Allah.

Well, you said it. You're gonna get some flak for this one. It's bad enough we are debating the political stuff here. You could have stopped at saying:

because this is mostly a Christian nation. which is of course religion ,they are Islam. religion causes more wars and costs more lives than any other thing in the world. WWII, 9/11, etc.

Christians didn't have Jesus killed. Read the gospels (Mat, Mark, Luke, John) and you will see who really killed him. And as for Islam, I agree with you on that, to a point. They think that they should rid the world of all other religions and that means the people too. The radicals are even worse. They take innocent lives and say Allah told them to do so. I Don't agree with that at all.

I'm with Ace on the religion point of view, you could make your christian scentence more true by swapping a few words around:

Christianity had Jesus die for everyone.

New quote:

Christianity; Jesus died for everyone.

Words are very important in this game of life