How old are you guys?

[m4rine]

to be honest i dont judge people by where they r from. i just dislike governments, not ppl.

you know? i think America is jsut unliked so much that whatever we do we're going to get cirticized. how about we start in at France for everytime they helped a guy in need and backed down when they thought they could handle them. it's about what everyone thinks right now at America. "oooh! they didn't help us in Pearl Harbor! idiots!" "oooh! the helped the Iraquis in their civil unrest! idiots!"

tho i'm unclear on why we entered Iraq anyway.....so GW might have been a bit rash. according to the Europeans, we should have backed off and let thousands get tortured and killed, disappearing day to day for no reason at all. being murdered in the streets being a common thing. yep, let's jsut stay here and let the wonderful crapizer UN save the worlds problems by doing nothing all the time.

UN do nothing? It might have proved that there were WMD in iraq. but US had its mind set on bombing and tortuing civilians. yes saddaam was bad. but how about "We want to bring him down because he is an evil murderer" rather than BS about WMD.

America was in discussions with Churchill before pearl Harbor. America backs the British and the British back America seeing were from the same background. It took America a couple of years to gear up for the war but the point being that Country's should pull together when there is a great evil that needs to be dealt with, IE, Hitler, terrorist, etc.

BS. There were no talks. It's a lie because your country can't accept they were wrong.

So many disagree with what Bush has done, but the reality of it is that something had to be done to stop this tyrant and no one had the balls to do it but the Americans' and British cause we have big ones!!

Bush and Blair (mostly Bush) are bullying cowards. They attack only who they can. North Korea posses more of a thread with WMD than Iraq. But Bush won't attack. Because he knows they will get beaten.

that's true, we weren't going to lift a finger to save your butts. but then, you weren't going to do anything about any of our wars, why should we care about yours? Germany was up against Europe. one smallish country actually defeated a continent and parts of Afrika? sad....

Germany? Small? Look at a map and compare it to UK

And what wars were u in at the time? And no we didn't support you in vietnam cos u had no right to go in in the first place. And u deserved to get ur ass kicked.

We felt it was our responsabilty as a stronger nation to help Poland. You should have done the same for us.

[Splaetos]

its true that there are mnay other threats equal too or surpassing the iraqi one.

the french get a bad rap for excersizing thier freedom to not want to attack someone. Americas supposed to be all about freedom to dissent after all, unless your the french.

Lots of americans died freeing france is true.

so is the fact that had pearl harbor not happened, it might have taken another few years for america to be involved in the war.

I wouldnt say the french owe Americans an 'eternal debt' because honestly, we had no interest in liberating france until we were sucked into the war for other reasons. We had no concern about the treatment of jews in germany as a nation either, in fact we turned away boatloads of jewish refugees.

anyway none of this has much to do with how old people are =)

[Jack Ruby]

This age thing turned into a decent debate

I dont like Tony Blair, I hate the labour party, seems their agends is to make natives outsiders in their own land. That Blunkett fool drives me crazy, says we need another 20 million immigrants, how the f*$k would he know ? He is blind, if he had eyes he would see the decadence of the British society and would hopefully take a different view.

However I do think Blair went to war because he thought there was a genuine threat, after 9/11 even the suspicion that Saddam might attack is in my mind a justification for war. The thing is Saddam did have wmd, the fact they have not been found yet is irrelevant, what happened to them is anyones guess but there was stuff he had FACT thats never been accounted for.

As for liberating poor Iraqi's, I believe it was the shiite majority that were on the receiving end of most of Saddams rough treatment, are these not the same people that have now joined the Sadr Militia and want to kill Americans and the rest of the coalition ?

No one went there to save the Shiite's the only reason for attacking was self preservation, a pre emptive strike which for me is justified if Iraq was thought to be a threat.

Any of you guys read Nostradamus ? He has some pretty scary predictions which refer to France and Europe in general, if they come true im sure France will be begging for help again.

Theres one quatrain that says the 3rd war would start on a date I cant remember, but on that day ( it was a few years back ) America attacked Osama's camps in Sudan and Afghanistan with cruise missiles, STRANGE but TRUE.

The quatrains continue on to say Italy will fall, Spain will fall and the hordes fight there way right up to Northern France where they are finally stopped by Neptune ( Britain ). However France has been poisined and much of the land uninhabitable and much of Europe lays in ruin.

I hope this scenario does not really get played out in reality but the start of the war went almost exactly as Nostradamus described even up the point he got the exact day right.

Twilight Zone

[MadMapper]

@ Jack

Anyways. Im against this stupid war. There was NO reason for it. There were never WoMD.

[Jack Ruby]

Mad, I have to disagree. I dont think Iraq was attacked for fun, what would be the point ?

As to the WMD, he did have them at one time, the UN inspectors after the gulf war found, destroyed and noted what was around. Some of the stuff they found went missing and has not been found since. Where are the Scuds now ? You sure as hell know he had them but they have vanished, probably dispersed to Syria and Sudan.

Heres unavoidable evidence that he did possess and USE wmd : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

[Splaetos]

Mad, I have to disagree. I dont think Iraq was attacked for fun, what would be the point ?

As to the WMD, he did have them at one time, the UN inspectors after the gulf war found, destroyed and noted what was around. Some of the stuff they found went missing and has not been found since. Where are the Scuds now ? You sure as hell know he had them but they have vanished, probably dispersed to Syria and Sudan.

Heres unavoidable evidence that he did possess and USE wmd : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack

lol so he hid weapons of mass distructtion, in quantities large enough to threaten all of western civilixation... in his rat hole?

He had some WMD's - in the past. The american government admits that there was zero basis to believe that saddam had wmd's in any quantity to be a threat. Bush doesnt admit it... he makes the cia take the wrap, while he is 'mis-informed but strong leader' But really, the government has come out many times in the past 6 months(at lower levels) and said, 'oh well sorry, we were wrong about the wmd's!'

Do you feel safer now that Saddam's phantom WMD's are gone?

India and Pakistan starting thier own cold war with newfound nuclear energies doesnt tweak the shudder impulse a bit more?

North Korea's still sitting on nuclear technology, developed on thier own, of unknown progress. North Korea isnt beleived to have ICBM's but NOrth korea is not subject to UN 'sacntions' as Iraq was, and can be building whatever they please.

China... now there is a stable and sensible government... always kind to its people and foreigners.... Never prone to violent outbursts for little or no reason - 400 ICBM's

oh and lets not forget the french! Who we love to piss off, and who love to piss off us... I'm betting sooner or later they decide to go out in a blaze of glory launching all 450 of thier icbm's at us! lol

But know who I really dont trust? Those damn brits. Poor England! NO more Empire! I can see them now, droll faces mutttering into thier tea about 'colonies lost'. Yea I bet they run top secret drills using thier 260 ICBM's to wipe out every government of thier ex colonies... then they probably draw up bad outlines of jetpacks that will carry them back to empirical might! Lead the way 007!


eh in all seriousness, cant complain about a tryannical asshole being removed, but thier stated motivation was false, or shall we say, based on nonexistant facts. Course, there are hundreds of other saddams out there as well, un-bothered by US/UK might, each of them as sadistic and dangerous as saddam, but not nearly as glamorous.


ps- im not even going to mention the number of Russian bombs in existance, and how poor that countries infrastructure is. Its too fucking scary.

[Jack Ruby]

Everyone has really valid points

Yes there are many other countries that could wreak havoc around the globe, indeed its a scary world right now. Those suitcase nukes that the USSR had, I think they made around 200 of them and at least 3 are not accounted for which is very serious business.

I dont really feel much safer after the invasion, only in the fact that saddam wont be likely to cause any more chaos. Though the biggest attack in history was nothing to do with him.

There is lots of evidence that equipment was shipped to Syria before the invasion, so no he didnt hide them in his own lil hole.

I have no idea where all this is heading, I think its going to escalate and there will be chaos for at least the next decade, scary stuff

edit: apparantly North Korea just got some ICBM's:

Military experts say new missiles that North Korea reportedly has developed are likely to be more accurate than its older weapons. The technology for the new missiles apparently went to North Korea from Russia via Japanese scrap dealers.
The respected military publication Jane's Defense Weekly says North Korea based the new missiles on the SSN6 system used in old Soviet submarines.

Futoshi Shibayama, a defense expert at Japan's Aichi Gakuin University, says missiles based on the SSN6 system would be an improvement over the Taepodong missile the communist state already has.

"In terms of the range it's hardly different. But in terms in reliability and in terms of how much [accuracy] you can get the target the latter missile is having more credibility," he said.

Jane's says the missiles have a range of at least 2500 kilometers, and the modified North Korean version possibly could be launched from land or from a ship at sea. That means it could reach both Japan and parts of the United States.

[m4rine]

But know who I really dont trust? Those damn brits. Poor England! NO more Empire! I can see them now, droll faces mutttering into thier tea about 'colonies lost'. Yea I bet they run top secret drills using thier 260 ICBM's to wipe out every government of thier ex colonies... then they probably draw up bad outlines of jetpacks that will carry them back to empirical might! Lead the way 007!

oh rite. so u dont trust us. we only supported you in Iraq cos we r gonna turn around and bomb you. and if any country is in our debt, its u. WE MADE USA. your country would be nothing if we hadn't arrived there.

i dont trust US. Because the government is bully. The people - having a go at France just cos it didn't agree with the US...

the UN is for world peace. not america. also ur army has to be the most un-coordinated, undisciplined army in the world. they shoot down allied planes, when the enemy doesnt have any planes. they bomb civilians. in vietnam, what the army did to the innocent. we are seeing much of the same in Iraq. but you think ur all right and high and mighty.

[Splaetos]

But know who I really dont trust? Those damn brits. Poor England! NO more Empire! I can see them now, droll faces mutttering into thier tea about 'colonies lost'. Yea I bet they run top secret drills using thier 260 ICBM's to wipe out every government of thier ex colonies... then they probably draw up bad outlines of jetpacks that will carry them back to empirical might! Lead the way 007!

oh rite. so u dont trust us. we only supported you in Iraq cos we r gonna turn around and bomb you. and if any country is in our debt, its u. WE MADE USA. your country would be nothing if we hadn't arrived there.

i dont trust US. Because the government is bully. The people - having a go at France just cos it didn't agree with the US...

the UN is for world peace. not america. also ur army has to be the most un-coordinated, undisciplined army in the world. they shoot down allied planes, when the enemy doesnt have any planes. they bomb civilians. in vietnam, what the army did to the innocent. we are seeing much of the same in Iraq. but you think ur all right and high and mighty.

i was joking! lol

[MadMapper]

Jack, you are a truely depressing fellow...

[m4rine]

yes my first paragraph was joking sarcasm lol... i guess its hard to tell sarcasm w/o tone of ovice

[hogleg]

Jack, you are a truely depressing fellow...

What Jack say's makes more sense than anyone else!

Rock on Jack

[M&M]

OMG !!! this thread has gone way offtopic and i kinda feel responsible

[jv_map]

w/e it's the off topic forum anyway debate on
(as long as no one's feelings are hurt (badly) )

[hogleg]

M4rine wrote:

BS. There were no talks. It's a lie because your country can't accept they were wrong.

AUGUST 1941

US Navy Close to War - Winston Churchill crossed the Atlantic in battleship "Prince of Wales" to meet President Roosevelt off Newfoundland between the 9th and 12th. Together they drafted the Atlantic Charter setting out their aims for war and peace. Discussion also took place on US Navy involvement in the Battle of the Atlantic, which will initially revolve around the supply of US forces in Iceland.
Go about half way down this page for proof.
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/merchantnavy1.html

They bombed Pearl Harbor Dec 7, 1941.
Get your facts straight before you state bogus data!
4U

to be honest i judge people by where they r from

Damn, I judge people by who they ARE not where their from.